Aced Poker seriously delinquent on $120K debt

[pokerprop]

8 Hours has passed since asking a mod to change the thread title, but no one has. Seeing as this story is currently buried in a thread members are unlikely to read wanted to bring it up here in its own thread.

The backstory starts here

As I said several times in the past thread the ownership change in aced and how everything played out is not of our business IF PDC makes good on all debts. If someone is stiffed along the way and they want to go about doing it the way they have this doesn't work. The old thread is long but I encourage to you read it first.

The old thread real caught my attention because the topic started with the idea affiliates were going to get stiffed. They jumped in to say this is not the case after we ranted and proceeded to do a good job playing damage control for the fucked up situation they let happen. (Read thread). During that time though there was still much reference from Ian making it clear they were not responsible for past affiliate debt but assured the old owners would pay them. The responses were more or less this is fine so long as they do but a problem if they don't.

PDC then paid the smaller affiliates but went on to allow the top 2 to continue to be stiffed.

Here are the posts starting at #17 in the new thread:

Hi Guys,
We finally received the details for monies owed about an hour ago - we are now working our way through this and will hopefully have everyone paid today.

(note on above: Originally they were not paying these)

Hi Guys,

I have just finished paying all outstanding Aced Affiliate balances in to your Aced Poker player account. There are a few affiliate accounts that did not have their payment details filled out, so an email will be going out reminding those to do so.

If you have any questions please email me: atil (at) pdcaffiliates.com

Thanks for your patience guys.

This quote is really getting on my nerves. There is an outstanding balance for two affiliates exceeding $120,000 that will likely never be paid, so to say ALL outstanding balances have been paid is put simply, a flat out lie.

Atil post about affiliates being paid is quoted with this response:

What about what Roger posted? He is owed money correct? Is there some reason the all doesn't include him?

Roger post is quoted with this response:

Geeze thats horrible. Sorry to hear Roger. Hopefully this will be resolved. I also asked before for contacts which people have, but won't give out (I was told they "couldn't give [me] that information". To those protecting these criminals, you are just as much a criminal yourself! It is pretty much aiding and abetting whether you like it or not if you are gonna sit back and protect these people. You can protect them now, but give it time, we will figure out who they are soon enough

For the record I received notice that my payment was approved today which I am happy Atil helped with, but why hasn't everyone gotten paid?

I sure hope this gets worked out for you Roger - that's ridiculous to let it spiral that far out of control as I'm sure that wasn't just a month or whatever of CPA's I'm guessing you have made more than one attempt to get paid in the past.

Roger's post once again quoted this response:

Don't have a vested interest in this commission wise as I never promoted Aced, however is someone going to explain this? IMO this post should be continually bumped until the issue is dealt with, that's a lot of money.

I emailed you Atil, I'm having trouble finding where my money was paid.

Ianw from Carbon Poker Chimes in

It is true that there are two affiliates that are owed outstanding monies by the group that controlled Aced. This group was essentially liquidated and therefore could not pay out the monies owed. We could have stood back and let the whole thing go down and noone would have got anything at all.

As I have pointed out from the start PDC are not liable for any monies owed to affiliates of Aced.
I have been in touch with both roger and Andreas to try and resolve this and made them both a few different options to try make this right despite the fact I am under no obligation to do so. However, I respect them both very much and have had a good relationship with both of them for a number of years on different levels and I hate to see people getting screwed and am trying to make it right.
Whether they accepted or wanted the deal or not - I have switched all their players previously brought in, to Rev share in an attempt to at least get them something back.

I am as disgusted as the rest of you at what went on but its the people that aced that need to be in here explaining why they haven't been paid for the last 2 years not me. This is an issue that has been long running by the sound of it and for some reason only now makes it to the boards.

A network cannot police what deals their rooms do as it has no visibility on any of that, and yes this was brought to the networks attention some time ago and royalty monies were released to Aced to pay affiliates ahead of time on a few occasions, however how can it be on the network to decide who gets paid or not? Obviously Aced made a call on who was getting paid out of the money available to them and chose not to pay these guys.

Roger was given the company name of the group that controlled Aced on12th May by the CEO of Merge.

If anyone wants to discuss this with me, all my details in below in my sig.

This is where you should start reading closely. While some of it is just short MJ final post nails the point down solid which is the second to last one I am copy in the next ten or so:

So in short, they are not going to pay Roger and Andreas. Really sucks to know

Great Point by Kaus:

Gotta look at it from another perspective Ian - if two affiliates get screwed whats to say more wont later on. I dont think I would trust merge if that happened and Im not the only one. They should be paid just like everyone else, and considering how long they've been waiting for their money I think someone owes them an apology as well.

Edit - Didnt want to make a new post but mine should have been specific - the apology should be coming from everyone who had anything to do with Aced.

Roger quotes this part of Ianw response before making the below post "As I have pointed out from the start PDC are not liable for any monies owed to affiliates of Aced.

Roger was given the company name of the group that controlled Aced on12th May by the CEO of Merge."

The statement I was given by Anthony was this and I misread it.

"I would like to clarify that Nick and Xander were the face of an investment group; CTT Group Enterprises. They have no direct ownership in the group and have tried their utmost to have the investment in Aced continued but unfortunately it was not forthcoming."

As far as PDC not being held liable, I don't see how that could be possible. You get the assets but not the liabilities?

Also, just to clarify, I was told this by Anthony.

Merge have not purchased the brand; the marketing group, that controls Carbon and PDC Poker have.

So am I to assume that "PDC" is this "marketing group" that runs "PDC Poker" and Carbon Poker.

I agree with you, the NEW MARKETING GROUP, or the PREVIOUS OWNERS need to do some clarifying, and this is not attacking you. The whole thing is a cluster fuck.

Congrats Ian, you cut yourself a deal that would get you off the hook when people got screwed. In principle, I don't think this deal was done in good faith because these issues are easily anticipated and if you were 1/2 savvy you would have seen this coming.

Prenut quotes Ian's full post and bolds: "As I have pointed out from the start PDC are not liable for any monies owed to affiliates of Aced." and then drives how the point i was trying to make in the last thread when Ian was so persistent to curve liability.

Wouldn't the normal process of buying a poker room to be to discuss monies owed to affiliates? So basically you bought only future revenues from the company, but not the debts? Doing business in this manner reflects badly upon your company. I understand that you have paid most affiliates, which is more than has occurred in certain takeovers. With that being said, the right and ethical thing to do is discuss the obligations to affiliates prior to completing the purchase of Aced, and to factor that into the purchase price. Anything else is bad business.

Trickyplay quotes "With that being said, the right and ethical thing to do is discuss the obligations to affiliates prior to completing the purchase of Aced, and to factor that into the purchase price."

Ian quotes Kaus' post at the end of this one below:

I think you are right Cheryl, the people that were running this company owe everyone an apology, however they remain silent while I take all the flack from you guys.

I have a dialect with both of the parties owed and am trying to sort this whole mess out. Airing this here isn't going to help anyone get their money and I'm not sure if I were owed that much I 'd have waited 2 years before bringing it up on here.

What this has to do with anyone trusting the Merge Network, do any other networks pay out affiliates on behalf of brands? Do any other networks give brands money to pay their affiliates before they are due it? Do other networks tell brands which affiliates to pay? The answer to all of the above is NO.

I didn't take over ACED becasue its an outstanding profitable business, as far as I know, both of the owed parties were basically offered the room to pay off the debt and declined (which is their right).

I bailed them out of effectively screwing over everyone and securing future earnings for you as well as the business. One day in the future hopefully this can be a decent brand if its ran well, we will build it up slowly and these guys will get their money back from me over time.

Anyone who can say they have not ever been paid, and not ever been treated more than fairly by PDC or me then please stand up.

I'm big enough to take any criticism so long as it's fair, but i won't stand here and have a dialect with people who have never met me, or done any business with me take cheap shots on a forum, calling me a thief.

Ian, while I don't agree with everything that you said I edited my post to remove the harsh language. I appreciate the fact that you are posting and answering questions, and not just avoiding it like many have done in the past.

Roger quotes ianw: "Airing this here isn't going to help anyone get their money and I'm not sure if I were owed that much I 'd have waited 2 years before bringing it up on here."

It was only about a year. During that time, we were continually promised to be paid. We'd send emails, they'd get ignored for awhile, then we would be told we were getting paid shortly, this went on until the buyout.

Me and the other affiliate didn't think it was our duty to post that Aced couldn't pay us. That was Brandon's duty that Aced was financially troubled or Merge's.

We can sit here and point fingers all day but the only reason it was "aired" on the public forum was because incorrect information was being displayed to the public that everything was all and well.

CarbonAtil - "Hi Guys, I have just finished paying all outstanding Aced Affiliate balances in to your Aced Poker player account."

The new owners are the ones who really need to step forward, but for some reason they are not.

Just more of the same old story. Someone who represents Merge/Aced/PDC/Whatever-the-hell gets snappy because people want to know where the heck all this money is going.

Here the point is driven home (below)

I don't think there is all that much to discuss really - if Merge allows two affiliates to go unpaid over 100k on a brand that is still licensed and operating openly I would say it is safe to assume that none of our payments/earnings are safe, period.

Now - who amongst wants to continue promoting any Merge brand until these guys are paid? Not me. After all - this is a network that needs affiliates to help it grow more than any other.

Brandon I hope you chime in here and say your hands were tied and you fought to the death to get these guys paid before leaving, because anything else man is just flat out wtf.

PDC if you can't eat 100k as a debt on a brand "worth saving" that's also a good sign I don't want to be involved. I want you to be able to absorb that cost like it's the cost of a business lunch for me to be involved - less shows me you don't have the proper capital to operate against your competitors.

I would also think players should/could see 100k not being able to be paid to top producing affiliates out as a sign that deposits aren't safe and secure, and Merge not backing up affiliate payments on a surviving brand is also a huge red flag.

Basically my point is this - anyone promoting ANY merge brand should do so at their own risk if that is how this network is going to operate. See Microgaming for dozens of clear examples of how that plays out.

Edit - none of my business I shouldn't really comment - I wouldn't want to hurt the chances of anyone involved in succeeding, I hope it all works out since there was many elements of this acquisition that were handled smoothly.

My post which was being written before reading MJ which wouldn't of been so long had I read his:

Can a mod please change this title to:

"Aced Poker seriously delinquent on $120K debt"

Or something of that nature and sticky it in the main forum section.

My previous posts on this topic in the previous thread were made on pure speculation but based on working and seeing similar scenarios play out many time with Merges now numbers #1 client I pretty much expected a post like this was coming. This had to be a bail out and someone had to be owned something considerable based on the wording used and the way this was spun. I had no actual previous knowledge of it.

This makes Brandon's silence all that more disturbing now, but their are of course some valid potential reasons for that as well.

To other affiliate please read: The way these companies run and do business in shell behind shell etc, empowers them to do and fuck over pretty much whoever they want. Unfortunately it has to be this way due to US laws but companies who abuse that status and fuck people over in the process it is your responsibility as affiliates if you at all care about the long term health of this industry to hold them fully accountable. Merge PDC Carbon whatever you want to call them did not make anything public about Aced, no details were given this was a bail out scenario. I'm not even confident that affiliate balanced or past commission would have been paid I not ranted so much in the other forum (will give them benefit of doubt there though). This was another example of Merge management handling something extremely poorly. Go back and read the past thread and look carefully at selective wording and how this played out. I'm not going to rehash it unless i have to i think you guys can read and see where I'm going with that.

For anyone who thinks I am just wasting my breath its conversations like these that keep things above the board and those who participate have saved affiliates and players funds from being lost in the pass.

I'm not saying PDC or Merge is for certain responsible for this debt but the way they handled it from the public perspective I sure see it difficult now to show how they are not. Some serious explanation and outing probably should of covered a long time ago.

The way I see it from this perspective at the moment is PDC/Carbon/Merge whatever that entity is aided in $120K of theft and is now responsible for it. If you didn't want to be responsible you'd of outed everyone given names, addresses phone numbers banks w/e and said were bailing these people out who fucked you over and then closed the brand. Considering you're running the brand, at risk of taken this too far is it is just a theory, you needed to keep it running in hope the change to a rev share was way to satisfy this debt.

Of course there is no way of knowing who owns merge and they could change ownership tomorrow and no one would know about i, but this is sure similar to the business practices of one of their main client.

This time the two largest affiliates. Next time is it the two largest player balances (perhaps a big tournament winner, because your main client sure has a taste for fucking over winners)?

You guys are running this brand correct? there must be a good reason for doing that. Either you bailed someone out and didn't announce it covering for them, or this brand is profitable and in which case the debts should be paid. We heard you past post about believing so much in potential of this band. Good start with the first profits being a payment plan for the debts of this brand which you acquired. or stop spinning shit and pretending affiliates are stupid.

Ians post about offer rev share to stiffed affiliates is quoted and then

I hope at the very least your making that 40% revenue share look like 100% for these two affiliates until this is satisfied in full.

[pokerprop]

Note: Bolding, underlines quotes etc do not come out well the way I just did that. If a mod wants to move post #17 on from old thread over to here and then edit all my quotes of those posts, that would help. Basically other thread topic totally changed and the story is buried there.

[MPC]

If I get a bank loan to buy a car, sell it the next day to someone else and stop paying the loan, who will the bank go after? Anwser: both. They'll harass me, the old owner, and when they realise they won't get anything out of me, they just go take the car from the new owner.

The moral to the story is simple: 120K was to be paid for assets (i.e. players). The responsibility to make this payment was with previous owners. Presumably, the new owners would have factored the value of these assets in the buying price, but didn't bother to consider if there was in essence a "lien" (in principle) on these assets. The previous owners are not paying. Where are these "long term income generating assets" now? With the new owners. As such, they should pay for it, or at least cut some sort of deal that all parties can agree to. Had the new owners been smart, they would have purchased ACED for a lower price, and taken on the affiliate owings as part of the deal. This debt woudl have been factored in the sale price. That's the only way you ensure no one gets fucked over. The way it was done makes it convenient for not paying. Was this by design?

[PokerFelts]

Well guys as i have always thought, ACED have been a complete cock up of an online poker room; it was run badly, has outstanding debts that simply don't seem to be looking like they are getting paid and their handling of the situation seems to be like that of a backstreet bookie rather than an online poker room.

I have never pushed ACED poker nor will i ever.... Would be interesting to see what legal standing the remaining two affiliates have regarding the matter...

You sign up to the affiliate program and you sign into a contract with terms and conditions... so surely they have a legal obligation regardless of someone coming on here saying that they don't....?

[pipeline]

I'm about to head to Prague but just for the record the CEO of Merge and I will meet on the 27th. I haven't spoken to Andreas or many other affiliates in awhile for personal reasons so I can't say exactly what the deal offered to him was.

For me it was a 50% revenue share (the standard is 40%) until the $58,800 was recouped. For 1 year old players I knew nothing was going to come of it, and so far not one player has come back to play. As I don't promote Merge heavily anymore nor do I have the traffic I once used to because of increasing lack of motivation in this industry, I declined the offer of increased promotion of Carbon Poker, PDC Poker or Aced for this additional 10% in order to regain the $58,800.

For the record I'm not trying to play the name game on anyone and this is not what I want right now, just simply trying to get what is owed from whomever is responsible.

If and when I do get paid, $10,000 will go to PokerAffiliateListings members charity of choice.

[pokerprop]

I agree completely with MPC post.

Illegal online gambling companies servicing the US market operate with no transparency. I'm sorry there is no way of knowing if an ownership change truly happened. Theoretically Aced could of just been a subdivision of PDC all along behind the scenes and this was a way for them to freeroll and get players. I seriously don't believe that was the case so am not accusing them of that, I am simply pointing out the old owner / new owner thing does not work as well in this industry. It is a tactic future bet and other scam operators have used to steal millions from players and affiliates over the years. I'm sorry but acquire a brand assisting them in stiffing those they owe money to and then keeping that band operational imo you fall straight into the category of a future bet like scandal whether intentional or not.

This plays a huge factor into can Merge or Carbon be trusted with players funds, affiliate funds etc. Personally I feel the answer to that is no and they do not have a good track record now and i'd be a little surprised if they were not already bailed out themselves as there is enough evidence they were in seriously poor financial shape at one time. I'm not talking from no where either I have plenty of documents they'd be surprised I have.

IMO explain in great detail why this is not being paid and answer question or GTFO. Serious if this was my forum I'd do a 2+2 like move when they banned anyone from UB posting on their site and ban Carbon completely from affiliate forum should this not be settled in full or openly and fully addressed.

If it is not addressed and left as is you guys would be as equally foolish to let Brandon off the hook as well.

[pokerprop]

For me it was a 50% revenue share (the standard is 40%) until the $58,800 was recouped. For 1 year old players I knew nothing was going to come of it, and so far not one player has come back to play. As I don't promote Merge heavily anymore nor do I have the traffic I once used to because of increasing lack of motivation in this industry, I declined the offer of increased promotion of Carbon Poker, PDC Poker or Aced for this additional 10% in order to regain the $58,800.

Roger I have the domain guysthatlikegirls.com. If you can help me sell it for $70,000 I'll give you $58,800. I'm offering this deal because I have empathy for your situation and would like to help you recover what was lost.

[MPC]

If only you owned girlsthatlikegirls.com... That's be an easy sell!

[MJ]

Roger I had 50% on Aced since day one, nice generous offer they gave you :eyeroll

[themike537]

Just to clear up my quote in the above, I was paid by Aced once I got in touch with them (numbers were nowhere near the $120,000 mentioned in this thread). Still a very shitty situation with Roger/Andreas, I hope it gets resolved.