iPoker Skin reneging on Rakeback Deal

[JamesLomas]

I have been working with a particular skin for about a year now, with some small problems, but a good deal, so I was willing to put up with it. We worked on a tiered structure for players and a profit share structure for me.

Because of the increasing competition in the rakeback market, I recently asked him if it would be possible to set the percentages myself, per player, as I see fit, as long as I didn't start offering everyone 55% (or something to that extent).

I sent the rakeback report to him today with the amounts to pay to players, and to me. For some reason he thinks I'm taking the piss, because one of my partners offered a better-than-average percentage to a player that only raked $500 or so. In general, I must say, the rake was low per player this month, but there was a huge increase in rake compared to previous months because of a relatively large number of new players.

He is now saying that there is absolutely no way that those players with the high %s are getting paid. The amounts I would have to make up if he pays out the full amount + commission for everyone except the players with the 'unfair' percentages (at a lower % perhaps), aren't too big. There is absolutely no way that the players (and my partners) aren't getting the promised amount, so if I have to, I will pay out the rest myself. I would obviously rather not.

Anyone got any tips for situations like these? I was planning on moving over players to another skin anyway, so losing the deal isn't a problem whatsoever. I would just like to get paid the full amount or as much as possible, and make sure that the deal is honoured throughout february (or at least up to now). First thing I'm going to do is tell everyone to stop playing.

[Nat Arem]

a) iPoker is supposed to be a VIP program and it should not be called "rakeback"
b) Changing up %s causes a ton of problems with players jumping around from skin to skin to make small amounts. In the long run, this costs operators a lot of money in deposit fees and players dropping out due to the friction involved in new accounts and deposits.

I'm personally glad they aren't honoring it because I think schemes like this aren't really good for anyone.

[JamesLomas]

a) Players don't want VIP programs that are incredibly vague, and that don't reward players fairly (why should FR players get 5x as much as HU players?)

b) I agree that price competition is unhealthy, but iPoker brought this on themselves by banning rakeback. There isn't anywhere near as much price competition on Boss or B2B. Because players HAVE to get a private deal to get any rakeback at all, they also get percentages that belong with private deals, rather than 'standard' 30-40% deals.

c) The rake is way too high anyway, and games are getting tougher. Without a good rakeback deal, it is hard for players to make a profit anymore. Rakeback gives a lot of money back to the players, which in turn causes players to play more/rake more.

d) This is no different than skins on the same network raising their affiliate percentages in order to pick up affiliates from other skins. In this case, the affiliate profits instead of the player, but in both cases the skin loses out. You might think this is bad practice as well, but my point is that some form of price competition is unavoidable in this environment.

e) You must be exaggerating here, because I don't believe that you think it's fine for anyone to renege on any deal. I know the amounts you deal with are many many times bigger than mine, but you'd be pissed off as well if a site you promoted threatened not to pay the full amount.

[Nat Arem]

I'm not saying it's your fault because some skins are ruining a lot of things for their networks. I'm also not saying that it's your 100% your fault. I believe a lot of the blame rests with the network and how they set up their rules and agreements with skins.

I don't think the skin should renege on deals they make just because our industry is built on trust between rooms/affiliates/players, but I'm not happy that they make deals like this. Therefore, I'm not all that upset that they would renege because maybe it means they realize they shouldn't do stuff like this.

Also, I have no problems with price competition from an affiliate standpoint as long as everyone's operating under the same rules. It would be like rakeback on Party back in 04 or something (ie, no rules). I think the network would realize how bad price competition is for them. After all, they're in the business of collecting rake and allowing this sort of stuff is like letting themselves get raked over and over with fees from people jumping around. Pretty stupid imo.

[JamesLomas]

It would be fine if he said "Sorry, but you can't offer those %s to those players. Starting March, they will get x% untill they rake $y". I would have no problem with that at all. I suggested that, but he simply refuses to accept that it is reasonable to pay out fully on an existing deal.

[Stiankr]

It would be fine if he said "Sorry, but you can't offer those %s to those players. Starting March, they will get x% untill they rake $y". I would have no problem with that at all. I suggested that, but he simply refuses to accept that it is reasonable to pay out fully on an existing deal.

Agree with that 100%. A deal is a deal and even though this may not be good for the skin or the network in the long run they should pay the players according to the deal that was made.

[Geof]

a) Players don't want VIP programs that are incredibly vague, and that don't reward players fairly (why should FR players get 5x as much as HU players?)

True, rather look for iPoker rooms who play by the rule and propose straight forward VIP programs. This is the true alternative to shady rakeback deals. You should also stay away from these iPoker skins doing this as they are likely to be kicked out of the network sooner or later.

b) I agree that price competition is unhealthy, but iPoker brought this on themselves by banning rakeback. There isn't anywhere near as much price competition on Boss or B2B. Because players HAVE to get a private deal to get any rakeback at all

Again, stay away from rooms proposing "private deals". Rules are clear: no rakeback on iPoker.

c) The rake is way too high anyway, and games are getting tougher. Without a good rakeback deal, it is hard for players to make a profit anymore. Rakeback gives a lot of money back to the players, which in turn causes players to play more/rake more.

Good VIP programs do the same, and more (true VIP service). This is the true alternative to rakeback.

d) This is no different than skins on the same network raising their affiliate percentages in order to pick up affiliates from other skins.

This is not right to compare affiliates to players. Although many players are also affiliates, the way to generate the income is completely different. And affiliate programs compete on other stuff than pure revenue share.

e) but you'd be pissed off as well if a site you promoted threatened not to pay the full amount

This is another excellent reason to stay away from these skins.

[JamesLomas]

In the current state, VIP programs aren't a viable alternative to rakeback as far as promotion goes. You can present a VIP program to someone and say it's good, but it's impossible to say how good. "I dunno, it's good" just doesn't cut it when you're dealing with savvy players. This is the reason I'm working on the website comparing iPoker vip programs, so I can finally show people how much they're getting.

However, there is an inherent flaw with ALL public iPoker programs, which is that points are offered using the dealt method. In a hand with 10 players, FIVE TIMES as many points are awarded as in a heads up game. If a program rewards a full ring player with $1,000, a heads-up player is likely to receive $200 or even less, because it's 5 times harder to climb vip levels. This can be fixed by using a formula that adjusts the points per $1 value based on rake paid, but isn't that practically rakeback then anyway?

[Geof]

You can present a VIP program to someone and say it's good, but it's impossible to say how good. "I dunno, it's good" just doesn't cut it when you're dealing with savvy players. This is the reason I'm working on the website comparing iPoker vip programs, so I can finally show people how much they're getting.

That's an excellent idea, go for it!! I recognize it's hard to convince players who have been used to receiving a straightforward rakeback percentage. But i hope you will find a good angle explaining all the other advantages of existing programs Get in touch if you want to share ideas.

[guljo]

Making a site where all VIP programs on iPoker would be compared is just a great idea. I am just not sure if they will allow you to say xxx VIP program is --> xx% rakeback on this level for playing xxx kind of game.

If they do allow you than it is pure gold, I would love to use site like this, but if they don't you will have to figure out how to present this results.