BetOnline's Reputation Fading Fast

[Prop]

The industry standard in chip dumping cases is pretty much to freeze both accounts, notify them of the investigation, sort it and get them to admit it, in which case you return the money to the account it belongs. The way BetOnline has handled this with clueless support, accounts just locked, cashouts being declined is absurd. BetOnline always had a decent reputation for payouts before - but the way things are lately is completely fucked!

This is the latest here and its well written

I scan forums for complaints and player issues 4-5 times per day, and honestly BetOnline receives more complaints than any other US betting site period. Most of them are just due to fucked up piss poor customer support, or naive bettors that don't understand the market. The majority of a time i read the first post and X out and don't open the thread again unless it gets 30 more posts - at which point i check it again, and most often see its the same degenerates that post in every thread who are all in every game or pot bettors who couldn't beat gambling to save their lives calling for the bookmakers heads as they desperately seek revenge on the enemy that supplies their fix - so in short, again yawn nothing to see here once again.. However! When it comes to poker there is something to see here. You guys need to get it through thick skulls that poker is a skill game and people win and its not the same as the casino. Also chip dumping is a minor offense that needs to be sorted quickly and prevented. It is nothing any reasonable site holds money hostage over forever. Some sites take longer than others - but no legitimate site gives players the indication of you cheated go away and hopes they do so they can keep their money or sticks them with support that has no clue and no one has anywhere close to as fucked up piss poor of a customer support department as BetOnline does.

A side issue here is the very fact someone who deposited for poker has a message he has to meet a 1x rollover on sports. I can see others making that mistake, but come on you guys are a sponsor at a "poker" affiliate program site.

I'm being very lite in this post and saying it how it is focusing only on the issue at hand - WAY to many you cheated responses with no proof and vague responses that have players stressed out plus no indication anyone at this company has the first fucking clue about running a poker room. To bring up one other issue and I've defended BetOnline tooth and nail for the most part on this in the past that no this is not BetOnSports. Guys this is EXACTLY how BetOnSports used to steal from players. Their poker was a nightmare will all sorts of unjust fund confiscations.

Perhaps this isn't an affiliate issue, but in my opinion if you're on revenue share this is something you probably want to be aware of because forums are jam packed with BetOnline complaints. Most of them I just x out because again I don't care. But the poker ones are a serious issue now.

Yes facts of the complaint linked to might reveal this or that or whatever. The outcome I care less about. The problem in all the issues with how this has been handled and more indication you guys are fucking clueless about how to handle the poker operation is well depicted by this persons write up. I have no time for this shit beyond this post, but will just note that his claims are perfect examples of exactly how dozens of other complaints played out and are the typical experience a BetOnline poker player needs to deal with, and potential risks he faces. Hope to whoever someone at BOL with a clue soon realizes how fucked up this poker operation is and gets to work fixing it.

[Pokeraddict]

I was concerned from day one about them when they claimed they were on a new poker network when they were actually on Action Poker.

10) On November 15, 2011 I re sent the same email I sent to them on November 12th, 2011 and got a response saying that my account had been reviewed and “chip dumping was detected and confirmed”. I responded requesting all hand histories of every hand I had ever played on the site. I got a response back saying “the complete hand history is too massive for it to be sent. But I will personally send you the hands in which you were found cheating. If that is ok with you.” I responded ok please send me the hand histories were I was “cheating”. I received no response and sent another email requesting these hand histories. I have not heard back since and have not received any hand histories.

That quote should be enough to blacklist them anywhere if it is found to be true. There is no excuse as to why full hand histories cannot be emailed to a player with a full explanation. Regardless, unless the chip dumping was determined to be fraud related (losing player charged back cc or something), the entire argument is irrelevant and the player should be paid and THEN banned after being paid.

Another thought is that this poker room is on the Action Poker Network. Why is Betonline handling a chip dump investigation? Wouldn't the network be the ones in charge of fraud/security of games?

[Prop]

Is Action still publicly traded and active? If not perhaps they purchased them. Or just got an enterprise license it been forever since I dealt with them but before UIGEA this was an option with them - I don't know if anyone ever purchased. In any case the buying them would total speculation based on:

1) BetOnline first claimed they were independent not using a network.
2) * or whatever name he uses that week claimed this was a massive expense for **
3) Clive went from CEO of Action Poker to being the CEO of BetOnline

Makes sense anyways, but yes 100% agree with your posts. Even if this shit does get sorted the support is horrible at BetOnline.

[Prop]

Edit note: This was originally a response to a post that's been removed. Seeing as that's been removed I remove the quote and the relevant words that responded to it. So just a short post left:

Perhaps AMs here and management at BetOnline might not be aware either. There's been management changes in the last month and things have gotten MUCH worse since that occurred - though was a bit of a problem prior (no where near as bad as it is now).

[Stephen]

Not sure what happened, but I thought I responded to this earlier....

1. This issue
As Lou is already speaking with Management, he will get this sorted. I have no idea of the full story, but SBR always works to resolve them.

2. Other points
This one issue aside, the problems at the moment are are common in the industry: delayed payouts, which is totally frustrating for everyone... I know CS is working hard to get up to date and finish it off, but this is something that everyone in the industry goes through. Our other problem is the natural growing pains of a comany going through a transition. CS can get better and the team is working on this.


I am the first to admit that BoL's focus is not poker (as those who have chatted with me know). You just have to review our bonuses and promotions to see this (compared to the major poker rooms). As such, we are not after poker affiliates that bring in pure poker players - we are looking for "social" poker players that are also interested in casino and sports. For the record, we sponsor PAL because we have respect to the affiliates and management here.

We have a long way to go with the poker room (and catching up with the growing pains in CS), but we can assure several things:

1. If there's an issue, you can work with us to resolve it.
2. The reason we are a B+ on SBR is because these issues will always be discussed openly with them and Management are very open.


Stephen

[Prop]

Stephen certainly you can't claim SBR is a reputable organization after making contrary claims while you were the sportsbook.com rep. So when SBR rated the brand you speak for a scam I believe your words were because "YOU" were not paying their demands and on two separate websites you had harsh words about them. Now when you work for a company that pays their demands (and yes it unfair how that works) your claiming credit for it? SBR is great because they do mitigate disputes, get things sorted for players etc. so not knocking them, but god these guys had Bet-FUCKING-US rated B or something similar at one point. Its pretty obvious how that works and you were brought to the point of mentioning it twice before when on the wrong side. (different topic just pointing it out )

In any case yeah payout complaints are no issue with me. Seriously 90% of the complaints that get posted about BetOnline are stuff no one with a clue should care about yet people tear them to pieces in the thread calling for their head time and time again. 5% on top are due to something that just needs to be worked out and will be.

The poker issue is however is very different here - and the poor support is just making that one worse, the issue is still there though its not entirely support alone as support reps are not the ones locking accounts with no notification being sent only to have them turned over to these reps which have no clue what's happening. The past month poker has escalated where BOL is going to start losing support. There are people that defend BOL on the boards and this goes along way keeping their reputation where it is. Perhaps I'm mistaken here, but I can't imagine all the policies are in place on how to handle each poker issue, and then from here it's just reps getting it that wrong due to incompetence or low IQ. It appears much more the case the management at BOL does not have clear policies and procedures in place for poker related issues and most likely needs to urgently work that stuff out so support can even be properly trained. Of course that's just speculation, but whatever it is needs to get fixed.

Seriously most people know BetOnline is going to get it right in the end. Why this needs to involve a player dealing with support for several hours, sitting worried for days weeks or even a month or more in extreme cases based on what support told him, getting others involved like SBR and all this stuff to get some of these right in the end makes no sense. If it is going to get there regardless (right) - then man someone needs to pass on to whoever handles this stuff, there are serious issues in the poker room that need to be addressed fast. Fwiw I had a decent sized team in the BestLine and then early BOL days of reduced juice and all of our accounts always got paid. That reputation is so on BetOnline - seriously that's what BetOnline most has going for it, is they pay - the majority of sites don't pay. The poker issues are probably not issues where anyone is looking to cheat someone, but as long those stay unresolved BetOnline is putting a huge risk to the reputation that took forever to build. (once that lost you don't get it back and you're starting at less than Zero. LOL look at Tradewinds *JustBet* and how one founders mega theft 26-years ago to this very month, still to this day is mentioned with a site that has always paid*)

Anyways though this isn't about reputations either though, while I know and a few others know BOL is going to get it right in the end. Its about the fact there is a serious issue here - and it very much appears support has been giving poker players who win the indication that they're going to get cheated. I've read these logs 730 times this month (okay that's an exaggeration but "at least" ten times) and finally got to the point where I was extremely annoyed it reached the point i couldn't help but let out a this is serious fucked up post. I ignored most of it, because even with the changes I ultimately still trust this site.

Anyways good luck to you Stephen - unless you own part of this site it isn't your issue but might be worth at least letting someone know there is a serious problem if you recognize the fact there is as well.

[Stephen]

Prop

I agree 100% that it is a serious issue. It may not be my Department (CS), but these negative posts affect our overall business and thus the affiliate program which is our problem. They will eventually sort this particular issue out (whether in this guy's favour or not), and it should never have got to this status (nor other posts).

I can say though that BoL is committed to getting this right too. Some of it is growing pains, some may be that they don't quite get the poker side of the business yet but that doesn't change the fact that this doesn't look good.

Stephen

[Prop]

Something tells me there's several well known poker community members with solid track records, trusted, well versed in policies, familiar with rules of many different poker sites, support issues etc. who fell well short of their target goals for 2011 income set prior to April. Perhaps a 1, 2, maybe 3 are interested in a 6-month paid holiday to have some fun in Panama.

"some may be that they don't quite get the poker side of the business yet" seems like it could be likely.

Anyways - everyone aware, that particular case which was just an example is linked to... see no reason for other posts in this thread that might end up off topic. Fine with me if a mod wants to lock this up - so it doesn't get off track.

[Jeremy]

Hey guys I moved some posts out of this thread as it was going downhill fast with a bunch of personal jabs and nonsense. Quite frankly this is a very legit thread that Prop made and one that many others in the industry will probably be reading. I ask that you keep it on point, be respectful, and act like business people and not kids on a playground. Thanks

[Prop]

SBR does a LOT for players and I can't discredit that in any way. However, they never report complains about their advertisers and have certainly protected some companies while extorting others. This though is just getting out of hand.

Lou's response in this thread is very disturbing

Oddsmaker Sportsbook - SBR Recent News for Oddsmaker Sportsbook

^ a similar BetOnline issue this guy with $37,000 confiscated.

I'm not saying its happening but the way this always is presented it just comes off like BetOnline is taking these funds from players and keeping them. Again this might be wrong, but that image is super there - that playing at BetOnline is not a good idea because if you win money and want to cash it out they could just say hey we found you cheated on this hand or that hand, or this circumstance and keep your full balance.

So the question here: is what is BetOnline's policy when people are found colluding. I recall the ZeeJustin scenario which was super extreme and Party moved to keep ALL of his funds (not sure if he ever got the excess back, they must of went somewhere fair but i don't care to go back and read). PokerStars went through the process refunded who they could and then paid him the difference.

I think most know I made my living gambling and I did anything I could to get an edge that was within reason: I never charged back and never cheated in a way a reasonable site could have avoided (I wasn't crook, just an advantage player) however I was at this for a long time. when I first start scanning forums regularly and reading player complaints it was my for own reasons if there was a glitch or a new way sites were detecting something or a good idea to gain an edge I wanted to read about it and exploit first. It wasn't until 2004 that I started to care and notice others complaints and then actually as time passed start to care about them. After that for a while there I was helping players as a pure hobby. What I'm getting at here, Is I've read a TON I mean maybe even a million dispute threads. The ones recently coming from BetOnline appear very much similar (appear the exact same actually) to the ones that come from scam sites. I tend to strongly believe however BetOnline isn't a scam site - but this latest response from Lou, SBR's cover up of the issues lately (not just BetOnline - I mean Legends had RIGGED software, got rouge pitted at Casinomeister and not just stayed A+ at SBR, SBR felt no need to even mention in on their news feed and quickly merged any side thread mentions of it to keep it in a single thread) all this has me wondering about BetOnline now a lot.

If the plan is to be legitimate and stay legitimate than this is suicide to a very long reputation they had which was positive. Giving the benefit of doubt best I can, but the more I process this the less it adds up. At the very least, there's a lot of issues worth keeping an eye for anyone with a rev share interest at this site.

And note: this has nothing at all to do with Steven and I have no vendetta here at all. I am however as annoyed with SBRLou as I am with BOL support reps