delete cookies / uninstal - is ANYONE even playing by the rules anymore

[scrawnybob]

hi

ok so I ask this question with IMHO an answer already but ...

does ANYONE even play by the "rules" anymore when it comes to not poaching / aquiring / converting "others" players ?

unless Ive missed something it still says in poker rooms t&c's etc that we / affiliates are NOT allowed to instruct visitors to delete cookied ... and much less to instruct them to unistall the software

personally Ive always followed this and always avoided poaching or "enthusistically" aquiring / converting others possibly tracked players

BUT

this whole delete cookies and now even uninstal software thing started (sorry but its true) by rakeback affiliates seems to now have become totally standard (im not anti RB affiliates but also there is not point bullshitting everyone either)

I'm seeing it absolutely everywhere - on video reviews, review bonus pages etc, by members here & on every single rakeback site etc

now from the winning affiliates POV & the players I can totally see it - they get signed up effectively under the last affiliate / last deal

BUT I just want to know has everyone with some ethics or used to following the t&c's just thrown in the towel and said "if you cant beat them join em" ?

because in all honesty whether an affiliate is offering RB I dont see RB affiliate have anymore right to say "delete / uninstall" on their site than any other affiliate should have the right to say "delete / uninstall" on their site ???

so before I just go ahead and follow what seems to be now the norm does anyone know if operators have no interest in this & is everyone else who didnt do this now start doing it ?

to be frank I just dont see the point in being the mug who follows the rules if nobody else is anymore and/or if the poker rooms really dont care about an "outdated rule" given RB affiliates feel they "need" to do it in order to be sure they give the signups RB

(sod the fact that a player has downloaded the software and is effectly signed up via someone else - just uninstall etc etc)

... to me that means the rule just cant and shouldnt be applied anymore

its quite literally everywhere so I'm guessing its now just a total free for all on tracking etc ?

I'm not bitching I just dont want to be following rules nobody else is anymore
feedback from anyone appreciated

cheers scrawnybob

[Zujo]

Every single rakeback site tells people to first delete cookies. If this were against the rules I'm pretty sure we would have heard about it by now. The fact that they happened to click a banner someplace else before then is not really relevant imo. They in all liklihood would not have created an account and played for real money. Rakeback is what got them to do so, so the rakeback affiliate deserves the credit.

I don't do much free bankroll or bonus work but I'm pretty sure those affiliates would feel the same way. The fact that the rooms don't enforce this 'rule' tells me they also agree. Getting people to get a poker site cookie on their computer is a lot less valuable than getting them to create an account, deposit and play for real money.

Now if you want to talk about affiliates coaching players to use a friend or family members name, which is quite common now with carefully worded replies to the 'what if i have an existing account' question, that is another story. I think those affiliates should be cracked down on hard.

[LadyHoldem]

It is against the rules on at least some sites (kind of silly that businesses kind of act like mediators to me .. Whenver I read about something being 'not fair' I wonder why that convo isn't nipped in the bud with a simple 'well then negotiate or compete better comment.. but that's another thread all together :P ) We have heard about by now. I did notice when working for a lot of rakeback clients lately, it's actually standard with the rakeback programs. In the turnkey type sites that ppl use with them, it's an included file.

You have to be able to code that language out of an include to remove it.

[pokerprop]

I don't find it at all unethical. The person is there looking on how to get rakeback. If they are not tracked properly and don't get rakeback it is then going to be a problem. Sites are reducing their support and making sure the player is taken care, this means profit for them yes, but I'd bet if the situation was a website was getting a flat rate and needed to handle support, they'd probably also include this. So I don't think it is all about poaching.

The good news today is there are dozens of websites and affiliate can promote that do not offer rakeback. So if there is a problem about competing with rakeback affiliates why not push the big sites not offering rakeback: PokerStars, PartyPoker, iPoker Network, Ongame Network, Microgaming Network etc.

[LadyHoldem]

I agree Prop, if you're saying that making sure a new player is tracked to you is ethical. If you're saying retracking is good customer service, then I take it all back .

[CK]

The good news today is there are dozens of websites and affiliate can promote that do not offer rakeback. So if there is a problem about competing with rakeback affiliates why not push the big sites not offering rakeback: PokerStars, PartyPoker, iPoker Network, Ongame Network, Microgaming Network etc.

Prop why should an affiliate have to reduce who they promote because certain affiliates have decided that clearing cookies and uninstalling software is the norm? A bit narrow-minded don't you think?

So if there is a problem about competing with rakeback affiliates

Consistant players who play on a regular basis daily don't all of a sudden stop playing at one of the leading rooms. Let me rephrase it's unlikely that they decided to stop playing at one of the major rooms and jumped ship to another. There's no problem competing...the problem is hanging onto good players who make you money each month. Where do you think they went? And this is why I choose CPA. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's thought wtf happened to a good player?

[pokerprop]

Prop why should an affiliate have to reduce who they promote because certain affiliates have decided that clearing cookies and uninstalling software is the norm?

I was suggesting this is the solution to complaining about rakeback.

There have been times where a site has later allowed rakeback and I never updated a mini site to give everyone rakeback, but never have I marketed a site where rakeback is available and not given it to the players. This is not my style of business. If a player can get a better deal next door I'm not going to ignore this fact and try to lure them in at my site locking them into a deal where I'm making more money that could have been there is they signed up next door. This is my preference.

For example Full Tilt offers rakeback on my website there are two option: 1) don't offer Full Tilt Poker, 2) offer Full Tilt Poker rakeback. If my site is not about rakeback Full Tilt generally will be excluded from the site.

To answer your question direct: it would be able the servicing players, and nothing to do with the tail end of what was added to the question.

Rakeback is a problem to non rakeback affiliates much more than the clearning cookies issue. If you're against them clearing cookies, its asking for credit to be given from the affiliate who actually converted them to you. Doesn't make sense imo. You're giving the player a lesser deal. Its like being a car sales men demoing a car and then someone goes down the street finds the car for $5K less and then you get pissed to not have gotten the sales commission. Everything is give and take, consumers shop: the one that gets there money deserves the credit imo.

Put all that aside though: the customer is now on this page reading it expecting rakeback, has never deposited before. If he doesn't clear his cookies he doesn't get what he just read about and expects to get. What do you tell the player? Sorry sir apparently you clicked scrawnybob or Kaus' banner ad in the past and they got your commission so now we can't offer you this deal you read about b4 because scrawnybob and Kaus don't offer rakeback.

I think rakeback is the stupidest thing ever imo. Players who don't have it learn about it and then don't get it. The fact sites allow this is the bigger problem. Thankfully it is only a few smaller networks that offer rakeback. Full Tilt is the only one that would be missed by most affiliates. I'm sure there is a plethora of options to market over cake, bodog or merge sites.

[pokerprop]

Response to the added section of your post after edit:

The issue with players stop playing to change accounts, is a much different topic than clearing cookies which refers to new players having not yet signed up.

Pokerrooms themselves are responsible for that problem, not a rakeback affiliate.

[CK]

Put all that aside though: the customer is now on this page reading it expecting rakeback, has never deposited before.

Surely you mean "has never joined before". If they've joined but havent deposited, my opinion is tough luck they belong to whatever affiliate they joined through and shouldn't be moved..but I'll assume you meant the player didnt join

Here's the catch, why should an affiliate have to change the way they do things because you feel that as a rakeback affiliate they should. I'm not bitching about rakeback at all. If you want to push rooms that way great,,,if you dont whatever. I dont care. But I think what Bob was asking is how come this has become the norm. Should bonus affiliates begin telling players to delete cookies and uninstall to make sure that a player is tagged to them. Your probably going to say it doesnt matter to you...but a year ago most sites wouldn't tolerate this and would tell an affiliate to pull those instructions down from their site.

and yes I agree rakeback is a mess

[PokerDude]

I think asking players to "delete" cookies and "uninstall" S/W is unethical, sure. Is it done - I'm sure. How many players actually follow directions to delete cookies.....many of them don't even know what cookies are.

This entire rakeback thing is out of control, and without question, is an overall detriment to our industry. Rakeback is all about short-term gain, with no foresight to long-term gain. Rakeback affiliates are beating each other up, along with traditional affiliates. Players will always be on the hunt for "better deals", and affiliate programs will soon become disenchanted with the entire concept of either having to manage RB's, or hearing complaints about how affiliates are not managing RB's properly, by themselves.

UIGEA + Rakeback = Devastation to Industry (simple math formula)